
Openarms
10-05 03:47 PM
In PA these are the steps to get DL
1) Go with all immigration related documents, with address proofs. (you still get harassed by the way you look, for this, for that and that..)..(I personally had very hard time..) After a long wait, chatting with other associates, he/she will simply say that you need to wait for 3 weeks untill they verify the status with USCIS. (SO EAD IS NOTHING FOR THEM...JUST ANOTHER WASTE CARD)
2) Once your are good.. they will send a letter, saying that your verification is done.. and come with all the laundry list of documents again
3) When you go there the story begins again....see below
One of associates at DMV today gave me very hard time (he talked while with another associate).... He want's to see my employment letter despite having and showing all the necessary documents (EAD, social, I-485, etc...) to him...and his own department verification is not sufficient for him....When I told him that he does not need to see my employment letter, that is the job of immigration services and despite telling my status as I-485 adjustee...he refuse to process my application.. asked for Supervisor and the supervisor was surprised and why the other associate is refused to give DL despite having all the documents.
Finally he took care off it.
1) Go with all immigration related documents, with address proofs. (you still get harassed by the way you look, for this, for that and that..)..(I personally had very hard time..) After a long wait, chatting with other associates, he/she will simply say that you need to wait for 3 weeks untill they verify the status with USCIS. (SO EAD IS NOTHING FOR THEM...JUST ANOTHER WASTE CARD)
2) Once your are good.. they will send a letter, saying that your verification is done.. and come with all the laundry list of documents again
3) When you go there the story begins again....see below
One of associates at DMV today gave me very hard time (he talked while with another associate).... He want's to see my employment letter despite having and showing all the necessary documents (EAD, social, I-485, etc...) to him...and his own department verification is not sufficient for him....When I told him that he does not need to see my employment letter, that is the job of immigration services and despite telling my status as I-485 adjustee...he refuse to process my application.. asked for Supervisor and the supervisor was surprised and why the other associate is refused to give DL despite having all the documents.
Finally he took care off it.
wallpaper Not caring about the power
vedicman
11-30 09:00 AM
The Startup Case For Immigration Reform - Maureen Farrell - Scaling Up - Forbes (http://blogs.forbes.com/maureenfarrell/2010/11/23/startups%E2%80%99-case-for-immigration/?boxes=Homepagechannels)
It�s not just Google that�s worried about attracting and retaining top technical talent. However, the search giant�s recent 10% raise for all its employees is a leading indicator of the talent and compensation war surging through Silicon Valley, and among tech startups around the US.
�It�s the worst I�ve seen since the late 1990s,� says Bessemer Venture Partner�s David Cowan, who estimates that salaries for experienced engineers are up about 20% from before the crisis. Charles River Partners� George Zachary says it takes between $90,000 and $100,000 to land even starting engineers compared to $75,000 to $80,000 just six months ago.
Of the dozen venture capitalists and CEOs I spoke to who are seeing this trend, nearly all say a business-friendly immigration policy could help them find talent to help them grow startups.
�Everyone of my startups has an issue with trying to fill out their engineering headcount plan,� says Cowan. �There are lots of talented engineers around the world. If we invited them to participate in our industry here in the U.S. we would see more Googles and Facebooks.�
Large and small businesses are lining up behind an immigration policy that would make it easier for entrepreneurs and high-tech professionals to come or stay in the United States. Congress did not move forward on comprehensive immigration reform before the midterm election. It has also failed to pass several of the more specific immigration proposals made in recent years. One of these, the DREAM Act, would have allowed alien students who graduate from college or served for two years in the military to stay in the US. Another, the Startup Visa Act, sought to give a visa to anyone who�s received $1 million in equity investment in their company and would create 10 US jobs.
Expect a concerted push to reverse what�s seen as a brain drain from big business and the venture capital industry. Jim Turley, the CEO of Ernst and Young who serves on Obama�s National Export Council, advocates a policy of what he calls �staple diplomacy.� Explaining it he said: �Whenever there�s a student from anywhere in the world who is walking across the stage from a leading university getting his or her PhD or masters we should staple a visa there to him or her and say you�re welcome to stay.�
Immigration proponents cite studies by Duke Professor Vivek Wadhwa, who determined that immigrants created a quarter of all technology and engineering firms founded in the U.S. between 1995 and 2005. Foreign-born nationals residing in this country were part of nearly one-quarter of patents filed in 2006.
Right now entrepreneurs and businesses have two options to bring highly skilled international residents into the US: the EB-5 visa and the H1B visa. With the EB-5 visa, immigrant investors can obtain a green card if they invest $1 million into a new or existing business and create at least 10 jobs. Less than half of last year�s 10,000 EB-5 slots were filled. Eleanor Pelta, the President-Elect of the American Immigration Lawyers Association and a partner at the law firm Morgan Lewis in Washington says foreign nationals are wary of using these visas to start a new business because if a business runs into trouble and the company doesn�t employ 10 workers two years later, the investor will lose his or her provisional visa. �It�s a dicey proposition because you have to use your own money or secure it with your own assets and you might not get a visa at the end of it anyway,� she says.
The H-1B visa is for highly skilled foreign workers who will fill jobs that Americans can�t. US companies must sponsor these visas. The US caps this visa category at 65,000 individuals and it�s nearly always oversubscribed. Cleveland immigration attorney David Leopold and current President of the American Immigration Lawyers Association expects that this fiscal year�s (staring on October 1, 2010) visa slots will be filled by January of 2011. �So from January through next October, no companies can bring in skilled workers on these visas.�
The United States� Chief Technology Officer Aneesh Chopra says President Obama has tried to lower administrative barriers for bringing foreign nationals into the US for professional development. �In his first year the President wanted to make sure scientists around the world who wanted to visit the US to participate in conferences and seminars could do that,� says Chopra. �We have streamlined that process and efforts so they can participate in ways that are a lot more friendly to their participation.�
Many in Silicon Valley question how well even that move has worked. New Enterprise Associates Scott Sandell who invests in companies in Silicon Valley and China says it�s hard to bring in top executives from Chinese firms to meet with executives from his US companies. �Immigration agents are more overwhelmed and seem to have more trouble processing applications than they ever have,� says Sandell, noting that it�s been worse in the past six months.
Still both Chopra and Undersecretary of Commerce Francisco Sanchez say that Obama will put political capital behind immigration reform in the next Congress. �We are obviously committed to comprehensive solution for immigration reform,� asserts Chopra. �There are clear areas of consensus in this country around reform, and areas of high-growth entrepreneurship clearly might be one that we can take action on sooner.�
It�s not just Google that�s worried about attracting and retaining top technical talent. However, the search giant�s recent 10% raise for all its employees is a leading indicator of the talent and compensation war surging through Silicon Valley, and among tech startups around the US.
�It�s the worst I�ve seen since the late 1990s,� says Bessemer Venture Partner�s David Cowan, who estimates that salaries for experienced engineers are up about 20% from before the crisis. Charles River Partners� George Zachary says it takes between $90,000 and $100,000 to land even starting engineers compared to $75,000 to $80,000 just six months ago.
Of the dozen venture capitalists and CEOs I spoke to who are seeing this trend, nearly all say a business-friendly immigration policy could help them find talent to help them grow startups.
�Everyone of my startups has an issue with trying to fill out their engineering headcount plan,� says Cowan. �There are lots of talented engineers around the world. If we invited them to participate in our industry here in the U.S. we would see more Googles and Facebooks.�
Large and small businesses are lining up behind an immigration policy that would make it easier for entrepreneurs and high-tech professionals to come or stay in the United States. Congress did not move forward on comprehensive immigration reform before the midterm election. It has also failed to pass several of the more specific immigration proposals made in recent years. One of these, the DREAM Act, would have allowed alien students who graduate from college or served for two years in the military to stay in the US. Another, the Startup Visa Act, sought to give a visa to anyone who�s received $1 million in equity investment in their company and would create 10 US jobs.
Expect a concerted push to reverse what�s seen as a brain drain from big business and the venture capital industry. Jim Turley, the CEO of Ernst and Young who serves on Obama�s National Export Council, advocates a policy of what he calls �staple diplomacy.� Explaining it he said: �Whenever there�s a student from anywhere in the world who is walking across the stage from a leading university getting his or her PhD or masters we should staple a visa there to him or her and say you�re welcome to stay.�
Immigration proponents cite studies by Duke Professor Vivek Wadhwa, who determined that immigrants created a quarter of all technology and engineering firms founded in the U.S. between 1995 and 2005. Foreign-born nationals residing in this country were part of nearly one-quarter of patents filed in 2006.
Right now entrepreneurs and businesses have two options to bring highly skilled international residents into the US: the EB-5 visa and the H1B visa. With the EB-5 visa, immigrant investors can obtain a green card if they invest $1 million into a new or existing business and create at least 10 jobs. Less than half of last year�s 10,000 EB-5 slots were filled. Eleanor Pelta, the President-Elect of the American Immigration Lawyers Association and a partner at the law firm Morgan Lewis in Washington says foreign nationals are wary of using these visas to start a new business because if a business runs into trouble and the company doesn�t employ 10 workers two years later, the investor will lose his or her provisional visa. �It�s a dicey proposition because you have to use your own money or secure it with your own assets and you might not get a visa at the end of it anyway,� she says.
The H-1B visa is for highly skilled foreign workers who will fill jobs that Americans can�t. US companies must sponsor these visas. The US caps this visa category at 65,000 individuals and it�s nearly always oversubscribed. Cleveland immigration attorney David Leopold and current President of the American Immigration Lawyers Association expects that this fiscal year�s (staring on October 1, 2010) visa slots will be filled by January of 2011. �So from January through next October, no companies can bring in skilled workers on these visas.�
The United States� Chief Technology Officer Aneesh Chopra says President Obama has tried to lower administrative barriers for bringing foreign nationals into the US for professional development. �In his first year the President wanted to make sure scientists around the world who wanted to visit the US to participate in conferences and seminars could do that,� says Chopra. �We have streamlined that process and efforts so they can participate in ways that are a lot more friendly to their participation.�
Many in Silicon Valley question how well even that move has worked. New Enterprise Associates Scott Sandell who invests in companies in Silicon Valley and China says it�s hard to bring in top executives from Chinese firms to meet with executives from his US companies. �Immigration agents are more overwhelmed and seem to have more trouble processing applications than they ever have,� says Sandell, noting that it�s been worse in the past six months.
Still both Chopra and Undersecretary of Commerce Francisco Sanchez say that Obama will put political capital behind immigration reform in the next Congress. �We are obviously committed to comprehensive solution for immigration reform,� asserts Chopra. �There are clear areas of consensus in this country around reform, and areas of high-growth entrepreneurship clearly might be one that we can take action on sooner.�
neodyn55
07-30 01:57 AM
"Funny reply:
Way to use your reproductive system to get ahead in line bro? If your father had had this idea, you wouldn't be here on these forums, but surfing on laguna beach with a cold martini and semi white chick.
another way of saying.. "stand in line & wait your turn""
*I've* done that. Maybe you guys need to get out more :p
Way to use your reproductive system to get ahead in line bro? If your father had had this idea, you wouldn't be here on these forums, but surfing on laguna beach with a cold martini and semi white chick.
another way of saying.. "stand in line & wait your turn""
*I've* done that. Maybe you guys need to get out more :p
2011 quotes about not caring what
piyu7444
04-01 02:37 PM
Hi Vinnysuru
Case is approvable but my question is - will I have to wait till Visa bulletin has PD date showing NOV 2006 or beyond or Current or they can just get a visa number now (say April 08) and send it for card prodcution ?
Case is approvable but my question is - will I have to wait till Visa bulletin has PD date showing NOV 2006 or beyond or Current or they can just get a visa number now (say April 08) and send it for card prodcution ?
more...
GotGC??
05-15 12:03 PM
Thanks for your reply.
My understanding is there can be only one AOS at any time.
- So if the AOS is applied based on the EB3 140, can another AOS be filed based on EB2?
- If a AOS has been applied based on EB3, can it be "upgraded" to EB2 ??
Thanks.
Not an expert but my guess is this window of opportunity will exist till next Fiscal year's bulletin is out i.e around 10th sep 2007. If you haven't already filed 485 you are unlikely to be approved during the window. I would go with aggressive approach i.e file based on pending EB2 and upgrade to PP. If you want to be conservtive because you never know if the porting will be accepted or not, or if it may add more delay just file eb3 485 right away, take the beneifts like ead etc.. and later port if retrogressed.
My understanding is there can be only one AOS at any time.
- So if the AOS is applied based on the EB3 140, can another AOS be filed based on EB2?
- If a AOS has been applied based on EB3, can it be "upgraded" to EB2 ??
Thanks.
Not an expert but my guess is this window of opportunity will exist till next Fiscal year's bulletin is out i.e around 10th sep 2007. If you haven't already filed 485 you are unlikely to be approved during the window. I would go with aggressive approach i.e file based on pending EB2 and upgrade to PP. If you want to be conservtive because you never know if the porting will be accepted or not, or if it may add more delay just file eb3 485 right away, take the beneifts like ead etc.. and later port if retrogressed.
9411b
03-06 12:56 PM
You are not alone.
We have the same problem.
EAD applied in July 07, EAD card received in Oct 07 and the card was made expired 01/01/07 by WAC.
Called USCIS hotline, tried new applications with WAC, TSC and Info pass, still waiting if WAC is going to correct its own mess.
Big headache.
Good luck everyone.
J
PS. concurrently filing with NSC then moved to WAC then to TSC. Now pending!!!!:(:(
We have the same problem.
EAD applied in July 07, EAD card received in Oct 07 and the card was made expired 01/01/07 by WAC.
Called USCIS hotline, tried new applications with WAC, TSC and Info pass, still waiting if WAC is going to correct its own mess.
Big headache.
Good luck everyone.
J
PS. concurrently filing with NSC then moved to WAC then to TSC. Now pending!!!!:(:(
more...
fcres
12-10 02:40 PM
What matters is a permanenet job offer letter and duties should match the
labor.
Rajesh Alex
rajeshalex: Where does it say job duties should match? I was under the understanding that the occupational classification should be same/similar.
labor.
Rajesh Alex
rajeshalex: Where does it say job duties should match? I was under the understanding that the occupational classification should be same/similar.
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gimmemygreen
12-27 07:47 AM
Now the new price for GC is 100 grand
more...

franklin
06-15 02:52 AM
H1 B extension under current laws (if on H1B for 6 years)
3 years extension if I140 approved and PD NOT current
1 year extension if LC approved and PD IS CURRENT
EAD or H1B - both RIGHT NOW are only 1 year extensions...
As I understand it, as long as you don't travel using your EAD, you can maintain H1B status. If you use EAD, you lose H1B
btw - as a side note, having multiple questions in 1 thread is almost impossible to track and answer. Ever heard of thread hijacking?!
3 years extension if I140 approved and PD NOT current
1 year extension if LC approved and PD IS CURRENT
EAD or H1B - both RIGHT NOW are only 1 year extensions...
As I understand it, as long as you don't travel using your EAD, you can maintain H1B status. If you use EAD, you lose H1B
btw - as a side note, having multiple questions in 1 thread is almost impossible to track and answer. Ever heard of thread hijacking?!
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pappu
08-22 04:57 PM
Pappu - Thanks for your reply. I completed my profile. I thot it was already complete. But filled out reamining fields.
I will call these people in Buffalo to find out if I can motivate them for rally..
Thank you
Thanks. Im glad I was able to help one more person come to the rally. If anyone has any issues they should contact the chapter leads or core team. We needed everyone in DC. Only exceptions are for who are unwell, pregnant or anti-immigrants on this forum. If you are neither of these three then see you in DC.
I will call these people in Buffalo to find out if I can motivate them for rally..
Thank you
Thanks. Im glad I was able to help one more person come to the rally. If anyone has any issues they should contact the chapter leads or core team. We needed everyone in DC. Only exceptions are for who are unwell, pregnant or anti-immigrants on this forum. If you are neither of these three then see you in DC.
more...
mchundi
02-14 07:42 PM
It is almost 3-4 months for me tracking the progress of S-1932 and the comprehensive immigration reform process. I know some of u here have been lobbying for this even longer.
To begin with a few of the immigration bills were to be taken up last september, then Bill Frist said "he will schedule immigration bills in 2006 only". Well i thought we have to wait till jan '06. Then from the blue came the S-1932, it had everything in it that i was waiting for. It was definitely an overkill, No wonder it did not go thru. If it had just the recapture of the unused numbers it would have probably gone thru.
Now the comprehensive immigration bill is not likely to be taken up until end march. If something else more important comes in, then it might be postponed to the next year.
We r caught in the politics of one-upmanship. The administration wants immigration reform. May be it wants to take credit for it. Some dont want it. The Senate majority leader is not interested in it. May be it is him we should lobby.
May be we should change of tactic now. PACE has a good chance of going thru this year. May be we should lobby to tag the unused numbers into the PACE. That will atleast keep the PD current for a couple of years, before which the CIR can be taken up.
Just a thought.
--MC
To begin with a few of the immigration bills were to be taken up last september, then Bill Frist said "he will schedule immigration bills in 2006 only". Well i thought we have to wait till jan '06. Then from the blue came the S-1932, it had everything in it that i was waiting for. It was definitely an overkill, No wonder it did not go thru. If it had just the recapture of the unused numbers it would have probably gone thru.
Now the comprehensive immigration bill is not likely to be taken up until end march. If something else more important comes in, then it might be postponed to the next year.
We r caught in the politics of one-upmanship. The administration wants immigration reform. May be it wants to take credit for it. Some dont want it. The Senate majority leader is not interested in it. May be it is him we should lobby.
May be we should change of tactic now. PACE has a good chance of going thru this year. May be we should lobby to tag the unused numbers into the PACE. That will atleast keep the PD current for a couple of years, before which the CIR can be taken up.
Just a thought.
--MC
hot care+what+you+think+quotes

prince_waiting
08-26 03:10 PM
Instead of doing the same old boycott and display a propensity of being destructive, I suggest we should work an extra day and get a letter from our respective employers applauding our contributions. This will not only show our constructive value to the society but also help to alienate ourselves from the illegal alien. The employer letters then can be bunched together and sent to all the major news bureaus and influential senators/congressmen to advocate our cause.
more...
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makemygc
07-18 12:12 PM
There's no need for you to be negative.
Obviously you have benefitted already from what's happened. Think about people who are stuck (just as you were up until recently) and want to 'try' to make things work for them too....
wish people were more understanding of others also. Why is it people forget what it was like for them when they were in same boat?
I edited my previous message as I do agree I sounded negative but that's not what I mean.
Some of my suggestions:-
1. Creating a petition and getting it signed by more than 10000 victims stuck in BEC and sending it to relevant people in congress and USCIS.
2. Doing a rally in NY, Sanjose etc.
3. Working closely with USCIS and IV core and see how we can improve the situation.
Obviously you have benefitted already from what's happened. Think about people who are stuck (just as you were up until recently) and want to 'try' to make things work for them too....
wish people were more understanding of others also. Why is it people forget what it was like for them when they were in same boat?
I edited my previous message as I do agree I sounded negative but that's not what I mean.
Some of my suggestions:-
1. Creating a petition and getting it signed by more than 10000 victims stuck in BEC and sending it to relevant people in congress and USCIS.
2. Doing a rally in NY, Sanjose etc.
3. Working closely with USCIS and IV core and see how we can improve the situation.
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sirinme
12-02 02:38 PM
Not sure if I can make it in person, but I will contribute $100. This is on top of my monthly contribution.
more...
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dehradoon
02-10 04:55 PM
Hi all,
I have received my EAD in oct 07 and my AP last month, with my spouse being primary applicant. Currently I am on h1b, however, I have a better offer at hand thro another employer who does not sponsor h1b. I was searching for posts on comparing h1b vs ead..but could not locate one.
Could someone enlighten me on this issue as to what wld be common issues that are raised if one switches to ead (other than the possibility of being out of status). I am presuming that if my spouse stays on h1b I can switch to h4 status if required?
Please advice..I need to make a decision this weekend!!
Thanks
San
Has it been 180 days since your 485 was filed. You can switch if YES, Valid H1B is an extra umbrella when using EAD if something goes wrong with EAD. Honestly, I do not see any benefit of H1B over EAD except that it can be valid for longer period of time where as EAD needs to be extended every year ....
I have received my EAD in oct 07 and my AP last month, with my spouse being primary applicant. Currently I am on h1b, however, I have a better offer at hand thro another employer who does not sponsor h1b. I was searching for posts on comparing h1b vs ead..but could not locate one.
Could someone enlighten me on this issue as to what wld be common issues that are raised if one switches to ead (other than the possibility of being out of status). I am presuming that if my spouse stays on h1b I can switch to h4 status if required?
Please advice..I need to make a decision this weekend!!
Thanks
San
Has it been 180 days since your 485 was filed. You can switch if YES, Valid H1B is an extra umbrella when using EAD if something goes wrong with EAD. Honestly, I do not see any benefit of H1B over EAD except that it can be valid for longer period of time where as EAD needs to be extended every year ....
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gcformeornot
04-07 01:08 PM
http://www.cilawgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AAO-Decision-re-Substituted-LC.pdf
more...
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glus
03-19 11:40 AM
Hello
I have substituted a Labor in 2004, My priority date is 4/4/2002. My I-140 is pending since May 2004 and i renew my EAD every year, EAD expires in July 2008. I got my 9th year H1 extensions till july 2007 from the same company/employer.
I tried to change the employer and file a new H1 which was denied this month. The reason for denial is USCIS is not satisfied with the place of work, I have re-applied H1 again on the same company. Now can i apply another NEW H1 from a different company.
I am tensed as my I-140 has been pending since so long....can someone please help me in this matter and suggest me what to do.
Thanks
Raghu
OK,
I am sorry to hear your I140 is pending for so long. You have 2 options. 1 - wait. 2-act. If you select the latter, do this:
-contact your senator
-if you receive a letter stating (pending security/background check), contact a good imm. lawyer and do a writ of mandamus.
USCIS does not have to complete FBI checks on I-140. If they argue that they are doing FBI check, you have a case and a period of 3 years if way over unreasonable. USCIS completes internal checks within a few months max. So, your pending I140 for 3 years can't possibly be due to internal uscis checks. I bet they lost your folder; if you want email me privately and I will give you more details on such cases.
If you follow my advise, and go through a goooood lawyer, your I140 will be DECIDED within a few weeks.
I have substituted a Labor in 2004, My priority date is 4/4/2002. My I-140 is pending since May 2004 and i renew my EAD every year, EAD expires in July 2008. I got my 9th year H1 extensions till july 2007 from the same company/employer.
I tried to change the employer and file a new H1 which was denied this month. The reason for denial is USCIS is not satisfied with the place of work, I have re-applied H1 again on the same company. Now can i apply another NEW H1 from a different company.
I am tensed as my I-140 has been pending since so long....can someone please help me in this matter and suggest me what to do.
Thanks
Raghu
OK,
I am sorry to hear your I140 is pending for so long. You have 2 options. 1 - wait. 2-act. If you select the latter, do this:
-contact your senator
-if you receive a letter stating (pending security/background check), contact a good imm. lawyer and do a writ of mandamus.
USCIS does not have to complete FBI checks on I-140. If they argue that they are doing FBI check, you have a case and a period of 3 years if way over unreasonable. USCIS completes internal checks within a few months max. So, your pending I140 for 3 years can't possibly be due to internal uscis checks. I bet they lost your folder; if you want email me privately and I will give you more details on such cases.
If you follow my advise, and go through a goooood lawyer, your I140 will be DECIDED within a few weeks.
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Harivinder
06-13 04:19 PM
Thanks For the information. I have made all the calls and I am trying to convince my friends to do the same.
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akhilmahajan
11-14 09:01 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bump ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
munnu77
04-06 10:56 PM
If you go toImmigration-law update time clearly says 3PM EST and IV postings are around 9.30PM EST ...so what have to be correct? the one which is posted at 3PM or 9.30 PM. You decide. Before asking same question in different place do some homework.
i agree immiration-law has not updated...
see cnn at 11 30 pm ET...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/06/immigration.ap/index.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12184299/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190770,00.html
they update every half hr
i agree immiration-law has not updated...
see cnn at 11 30 pm ET...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/06/immigration.ap/index.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12184299/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190770,00.html
they update every half hr
jk333
07-17 07:15 PM
is it official that we can file till August 17th? i didn't see that in august bulletin. please let me know as you know how important is that..... Well its timing...
http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/VisaBulletinUpdate17Jul07.pdf
http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/VisaBulletinUpdate17Jul07.pdf
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